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A Commenter’s Rights

Started by Daniel Ha · 1 year ago

var disqus_developer = 1;

When you leave a comment on a comment, how often do you wonder what your rights are? Not too often, I’d guess. Over the years, it has become an accepted fact that content contributed to a website simply belongs to that website. If the website, or blog for today’s web, goes away [...] ... Continue reading »

187 comments

  • andrewparker

    1 year ago

    I'd add that the publisher should have a syndication option for the comments. In other words, the publisher should get a non-exclusive, free right to syndicate all the comments along with the original blog post. A conversation and the corresponding blog post should always be able to go hand in hand.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    Excellent point and a good way of articulating it.
    reply
  • fredwilson

    1 year ago

    ooh, that's a good and necessary one. great suggstion andrew
    reply
  • Ethan Bauley

    1 year ago

    Another question I have is: What is the social contract b/w people that comment on a blog post out of context and the original author?

    For example, *every* single comment on HN (or Digg or whatever)? Especially the ones that are ott flames in context?

    In lieu of the i/o plumbing that I'm sure is in the near future, do commentators owe the author at least a "heads up" that there's another convo happening, especially if there's serious criticism being leveled?
    reply
  • Perry

    1 year ago

    Agree, but your context is important to single out. "syndication along with the original post". I'm also interested in the rights to employ the comments for other uses. I'm thinking of a variety of aggregation and re-publishing models:
    - aggregation of comments into rating schemes or sentiment
    - culling comments together from multiple blogs/sites
    - zaget style "extraction from comments"
    - organizing posts by individual contributor, or other factors
    - repackaging comments into "SEO pages" (An increasing Yelp habit to improve their SE visibility

    Any added thoughts?
    reply
  • scottyhendo

    1 year ago

    Great work on pulling this together. Bringing clarity to this issue can help prevent a lot of frustration down the road.

    I think the real world equivalent is more like ownership of ideas and comments made at conferences & cocktail receptions.

    Does the hotel hosting a conference retain rights to the content presented? Does the conference organizer? Or does the presenter of the session? Or the audience member who made it?

    How can we help turn this straw man into cast iron?
    reply
  • StevenHodson

    1 year ago

    I think that the key here is that one is verbal and the other is written. There seems to be an opinion that once pen is put to paper (even figuratively as in the case of blog comments) a whole different set of rules come into play.
    reply
  • scottyhendo

    1 year ago

    Any recorded comment - whether spoken or written - is open to fair use. Digital media seems to be an amalgamation of both, given the written form and the fluidity of digital.

    However we proceed - universal code or not - I just want to know how each discussion forum (spoken, hard copy, or digital) will treat my contributions. With an upfront, well communicated policy, we can all decided whether or now we want to share our thoughts in that space or not.
    reply
  • fredwilson

    1 year ago

    i always thought of it as shared ownership but after reading this I think you are right. the commenter "owns" the comment and has the right to edit it, delete it, and take it with them wherever else they want it to go. The publisher/blogger owns the right to publish it for free on their service and to delete it if they choose.

    third party comment systems like yours and others makes this easier and that's a good thing.
    reply
  • learn spanish

    7 months ago

    I think any article on the internet should be able to be used by anyone.
    reply
  • Learn spanish quick

    5 months ago

    Usually this is the case, but you should always remember to link back and give credit to the original author.
    reply
  • marshal sandler

    1 year ago

    Once posted the content is under control of bog owners ! To many restrictions slow down the process
    reply
  • Mike

    1 year ago

    Sorry to be pedantic but if and when you do produce a policy on this, I think it would sound a lot better if you replaced all the 'he' and 'his' references with 'he/she' and 'his/her', or even 'they' and 'theirs'- it just struck me while reading this post that implying that all writers and commenters are male seems a bit dated.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    It is probably dated. Using "he" for ambiguous pronouns was the
    grammar I was taught in school. Just sayin'. :)

    More formal writing is used in the actual policies.
    reply
  • Mike

    1 year ago

    Good stuff :)
    reply
  • Stephanie Booth

    1 year ago

    One thing I can say clearly as a blog owner, is that I don't want my commenters to be able to modify their comments once they're posted (say, after the first 15 minutes to correct typos). I'd like the commenting system I use to allow me to enforce that, and it would keep me from using disqus on my blog instead of the standard wordpress commenting system if it didn't.
    reply
  • Tim Burden

    1 year ago

    One thing that does not appear to have been mentioned - with respect to the right of a commenter to delete his own comment - is that once a comment has been made, other comments might be made on that comment. If the comment is then deleted, all the rest of the comments might be out of context and the conversation ruined. As a commenter, what about my right not to look like a retard if someone deletes a comment that I have commented on and then there's me, with some inane, out-of-context free-floating comment that doesn't make sense now?

    I don't think commenters should be able to edit or delete after a certain typo-edit period. The blogger and the other commenters have rights too.
    reply
  • doke01

    1 year ago

    I agree here. I dislike the idea of breaking a conversation. Isn't it better to give the commenter the ability to correct using another comment? Like a newspaper or magazine that runs a correction? Another option is some type of place-holder where that comment once existed to indicate the flow of conversation has been edited in some way.
    reply
  • micah

    1 year ago

    Daniel, are you planning on getting the rest of the comment system companies (Intense Debate, SezWho, etc.) involved in this discussion? Its something that should be accepted across the board, rather than just by Disqus.

    We did something similar at the Council for Advancement and Support of Education with a Donor's Bill of Rights (http://www.case.org/Content/AboutCASE/Display.c...), which was endorsed by a group of folks.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    I do hope to involve anyone to which this applies.
    reply
  • micah

    1 year ago

    Something like this can only be affective if its accepted by all. I applaud you for taking the lead in this.

    I wonder if there is a larger bill of rights that should be discussed as there are more publisher addons than ever before.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    >> I wonder if there is a larger bill of rights that should be discussed as there are more publisher addons than ever before.

    Great minds think alike, friend. We've been talking abut that larger case before this particular "commenter" issue came up. The concept is still early, but we want to get as many pertinent minds involved as possible. Maybe you'd be up to chat about this.
    reply
  • micah

    1 year ago

    We should have a summit! But yes Lijit and I would love to expand the discussion.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    Let's do it. Sorry I missed you in SF this weekend. I'm about to pass
    out because I only had 3 hours of sleep in the last couple days.
    reply
  • vimoh

    1 year ago

    I have heard of at least one instance where a blogger got into trouble with authorities because of a comment posted on his blog. This the answer? Very probably.
    reply
  • howardlindzon

    1 year ago

    can i invest ? :)
    reply
  • Thomas Pham

    1 year ago

    It would be interesting to see what type of boundaries and limitations Disqus has in store when it comes to "editing" the comments. This is a topic that needs to be thought about thoroughly. The statements prior seem promising. However, they will be promising based upon again the editing mechanism Disqus comes up with if they do choose to take this path.

    I'm glad Disqus is looking to the public for information and advice regarding a gray area. After all these are the people (bloggers/commenters) who will be using the tool.
    reply
  • chartreuse

    1 year ago

    Interesting conversation.

    I don't think the commenter should have the right to edit or delete their comments. That's like changing history...
    reply
  • jyoseph

    1 year ago

    I would have to disagree with this on one minor technicality. If this statement is true:...

    "c) The modification of a comment, as long as the original copy is still accessible and the edit is transparent"

    ...then the original comment would stay intact, right? So the history is still there after the comment is edited.

    Let's say hypothetically we're all eating around the dinner table and I blurt out "these mashed potatoes are horrible". Later I feel bad for saying the mashed potatoes are horrible so I fine tune my statement to say "these mashed potatoes taste different, they're not exactly like mom used to make".

    The "history" of my first comment is still there, so it's not changed totally. Having said that I think when it comes to "rights" as the term is used so loosely I would err on the side of giving the content creator the ultimate right to delete or edit the comment in any way they wish. After all, first comes the content and the commentary comes as a result of the content. Let's not get that part twisted.
    reply
  • dj paine

    1 year ago

    agreed!
    reply
  • howardlindzon

    1 year ago

    whatever chartreuse says guys...goes!

    I think chartreuse would be the right next hire for disqus as conversation evangelist. not joking.
    reply
  • chartreuse

    1 year ago

    Howard Lindzon. Best. Financial. Adviser. Ever. :)
    reply
  • David Gibbons

    1 year ago

    Chartreuse hits the nail on the head. Why would you allow anyone to change history?

    The initial assumption here is incorrect; comments are not blog posts. Never will be. I certainly agree that *some* comments can stand alone and that those could be re-posted on blogs though I would caution bloggers that you don't win too many friends when you seek to control a productive discussion by hijacking it onto your blog. 'nuff said on that topic. It's certainly a comment author's right to republish their comment and "blog this comment" is a feature disqus should probably consider adding.

    A comment is a part of a conversation. Altering a comment alters the conversation. The conversation does not 'belong' to the person that left the comment. Allowing users to remove or edit their part of a discussion will take you on a short-trip to moderator hell in a vibrant community (I learned this the hard way.) I personally believe the best implementation allows comments to be edited (for typo's etc.) only within a limited window of time (say, 10 min's) and thereafter, edits are disabled.

    I was a fan of disqus but honestly, with this post, you've lost my trust. Disqus has an obvious bias for controlling comment content and that bias dents your credibility in this discussion; please reconsider your position on this issue.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. I read this comment and I agree with what you said.

    >> I personally believe the best implementation allows comments to be edited (for typo's etc.) only within a limited window of time (say, 10 min's) and thereafter, edits are disabled.

    Yes, there should be (and are, with Disqus) limits around editing.

    >> Disqus has an obvious bias for controlling comment content and that bias dents your credibility in this discussion

    Did you read the blog post? I'm not being snarky as it's a serious question. It was stated repeatedly that we don't need to control the content to achieve our goals for the service.

    >> please reconsider your position on this issue

    What position? We never stated a position. I wrote about some thoughts I had to provoke an interesting discussion on where this could head.
    reply
  • esqmarty

    1 year ago

    speaking to Fred's point re ownership, to lawyer it up, you're suggesting that the commenter retains copyright in the comment and grants the publisher/blogger a license to utilize the comment on the blog (as opposed to being a granted a license to commercialize the comments in some other way).

    With regard to efliv, I think that a 'either 'publish in entirety or delete' choice to publisher's is extreme. What is nefarious in editing for brevity or grammer or spelling (if indicated).

    Technological Question: how can the commenter edit the comment once its been published on someone else's blog? How can they access it if the blogger shuts down?
    reply
  • Peat Bakke

    1 year ago

    re: questions

    Editing is entirely up to the capabilities of the blogging software, and the discretion of the blogger. Most of the big packages (eg, wordpress) provide this capability.

    If the blog is shut down, comments go away. There are a couple of work arounds -- one is to use a third party service like Disqus which will (hopefully) be around for a long time. Another is to keep a backup of your own comments ... which is a pretty tedious prospect.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    A third party, intermediary platform such as Disqus.

    I know that sounds convenient for us, but hey, I believe in what we do.
    reply
  • kenlefeb

    1 year ago

    The very fact that print publications feel the need to explicitly state the disclaimer that anything you write to them becomes their property implies, to me, that the default position is that the author of those comments (or letters to the editor) actually maintains ownership over the contents. The fact that it has become so commonplace for publishers to require that correspondents surrender their claims, does not change the legality.

    Is there anybody in this discussion who actually has any expertise in the legalities in this matter? Not that what is legal really changes what *ought* to be, but it helps to set a foundation from which we can derive the appropriate deltas to get to where people *want* to be.

    Back to the current train of thought, I think the person who wishes to maintain close ownership of his comments will actually post them on his own property (i.e., blog) and then link back to them. The person who jumps into the fray on somebody else's property (the blog hosting the comments) is agreeing to whatever terms that host has established for the ownership of such content.

    The technology ought to allow both approaches to be treated as first-order participants in the conversation.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    Yes, that's the way to do it now. Just post to your own blog.

    But some don't maintain a blog or would like to directly participant
    in the discussion on the blog. I'm not a lawyer and I'd like to hear
    more about the legalities.
    reply
  • Peat Bakke

    1 year ago

    I like the idea of a blog being common ground between the blogger and the commenter. I agree that commenters should generally have the full capability to edit and delete their comments, but I think it's key that the creator of the blog have final say on how the blog operates.

    It seems like there's two things that are needed to get traction --

    First is a simple way for the blogger to signal to commenters what the policies are for the blog, something similar to the Creative Commons icons that quickly and clearly conveys a mix of capabilities and responsibilities.

    Second is to continue promoting this discussion. It seems like a no brainer for the majority of people who participate in online communities, but I hadn't really *thought* about it until I ran across this discussion.

    I'm glad Disqus is raising the issue. :)
    reply
  • brlewis

    1 year ago

    I think this is a great issue to talk about. There's one particular detail I'm concerned about, though.

    Suppose a school has a policy of not identifying students in published photos. They would moderate comments to avoid somebody unfamiliar with the policy innocently mentioning the name of a student pictured. I would want to be sure that while that comment was awaiting moderation, nobody but the commenter and the moderators would see it anywhere.
    reply
  • Meryn Stol

    1 year ago

    First of all, I applaud this initiative to talk about ethics regarding comments.

    However, I do not think that this will anytime soon be set in stone. For example, I think there will be many situations in which "discussion moderators" (someone who has admin rights to a blog or a forum could be said to have become implicitly a moderator of any discussion there) would want comments to be non-retractable, which technically comes down to being non-deletable by the comment poster. I think this will be highly situtation-specific.

    There could be many more nuances which would apply in different situations.
    All in all, this is certainly a good begin for discussion. I guess most of this will remain never spoken-out though. I think it would be best to investigate and formalize existing implicit norms.
    reply
  • berkay

    1 year ago

    a) The ability to edit and remove their comments
    Agreed.
    b) Access to all of their comments, even if it has been deleted on a blog
    this is little self serving, no? as the blog owner, I feel no obligation to make a comment available indefinitely. As the publisher of the blog, I should be able to delete a comment if I choose to. Commenter has the right to publish his/her comment elsewhere. just not on my blog.
    c) The right to use their own comments as blog posts. After all, a commenter is just a publisher not writing on his own website.
    Agreed.
    d) A life for the comment beyond a single blog. I want to take my comments with me, even if the blog shuts down.
    again self serving. you may just as well say, all comments should use Disqus :) the blog owner should be in control of the blog. now that we have aggregators, comments can never be really deleted anyway.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    This isn't a mandated proposal.

    It's just something to think about. We think about this all the time
    over at Disqus and we'd like to get more input from people.
    reply
  • Meryn Stol

    1 year ago

    First of all, I applaud this initiative to talk about ethics regarding comments.

    However, I do not think that this will anytime soon be set in stone. For example, I think there will be many situations in which "discussion moderators" (someone who has admin rights to a blog or a forum could be said to have become implicitly a moderator of any discussion there) would want comments to be non-retractable, which technically comes down to being non-deletable by the comment poster. I think this will be highly situtation-specific.

    There could be many more nuances which would apply in different situations.
    All in all, this is certainly a good begin for discussion. I guess most of this will remain never spoken-out though. I think it would be best to investigate and formalize existing implicit norms.
    reply
  • scottyhendo

    1 year ago

    Great work on pulling this together. Bringing clarity to this issue can help prevent a lot of frustration down the road.

    I think the real world equivalent is more like ownership of ideas and comments made at conferences & cocktail receptions.

    Does the hotel hosting a conference retain rights to the content presented? Does the conference organizer? Or does the presenter of the session? Or the audience member who made it?

    How can we help turn this straw man into cast iron?
    reply
  • berkay

    1 year ago

    a) The ability to edit and remove their comments
    Agreed.
    b) Access to all of their comments, even if it has been deleted on a blog
    this is little self serving, no? as the blog owner, I feel no obligation to make a comment available indefinitely. As the publisher of the blog, I should be able to delete a comment if I choose to. Commenter has the right to publish his/her comment elsewhere. just not on my blog.
    c) The right to use their own comments as blog posts. After all, a commenter is just a publisher not writing on his own website.
    Agreed.
    d) A life for the comment beyond a single blog. I want to take my comments with me, even if the blog shuts down.
    again self serving. you may just as well say, all comments should use Disqus :) the blog owner should be in control of the blog. now that we have aggregators, comments can never be really deleted anyway.
    reply
  • Lee

    1 year ago

    It's amazing that this debate popped up, I was literally confronted with this issue last week when quoting a newspaper article, and its' subsequent comments (the comments/discussion was more interesting than the original article).

    I feel that if proper credit is given to the originating website, that comments can be quoted just like anything else, so long as the person who wrote those comments is also credited. A public comment on a website is just that, public, and should be allowed to drift to other places, despite the author's original intentions.
    reply
  • StevenHodson

    1 year ago

    that is one thing I have always tried to do when quoting someone from either comments on a blog post or somewhere like FriendFeed. If they have been good enough to help continue the conversation (good or bad) they deserve credit if you are going to re-use their words - but then that should go without saying.
    reply
  • aweissman

    1 year ago

    I take a somewhat different approach, one that assumes that in a public discourse such as being discussed here, the idea of "rights" don't capture the efficiencies, and intricacies, of public electronic communications.

    Thus, my opinion on "commenter's rights" tracks what Jerry Garcia once famously said about the Grateful Dead's policy on allowing taping and trading of their concerts: "Once we're done with it, it's theirs."
    reply
  • khylek

    1 year ago

    Agreed that a bill of rights doesn't really capture the intricacy. People get very concerned about this type of thing, and how to monetize, and who owns what. On some level, I get that. But I think that's taking the wrong approach.

    Really, it's the conversation as a whole that is important and not any one part of it. More and more the content is going to be portable to different distribution methods. The concept of blogs+comments is outdated. The conversation is mobile, and that movement is unstoppable. It's more important to figure out how to embrace that movement and take advantage of it than it is trying to figure out who owns what.
    reply
  • StevenHodson

    1 year ago

    >Really, it's the conversation as a whole that is important and not any one part of it.

    My feeling exactly.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    Yes, I agree.

    We need to take steps toward this, however. People are familiar with a
    certain structure. An abstract notion of "conversation" and its
    distribution is difficult to make sense of now without getting people
    thinking about these basics.
    reply
  • efliv

    1 year ago

    All of this sounds great to me, with one exception: point c in the blogger's rights:

    "c) The modification of a comment, as long as the original copy is still accessible and the edit is transparent"

    As a commenter, I don't like the idea of a blog owner editing my own thoughts, whether those edits are transparent or not. Perhaps I feel this way because I can't think of a good example where this would be needed and I'd welcome some examples.

    In my opinion the blogger should have a boolean decision to include the comment or not, but not to edit it. Further expanding, maybe disqus could make this a setting in the user's profile, something like 'allow editing of my comments by blog owner y/n.'

    Keep up the good work.
    reply
  • Carlo Zottmann

    1 year ago

    Well, I agree and disagree at the same time.

    As a commenter, I agree with you.

    As someone who ran a couple of larger sites in the past, I know that sometimes the blogger/owner needs to have the ability to "pull the plug" on a comment. I had to deal with racist and inflammatory remarks on some of my sites, and I was glad to have the option to cut some discussions short.

    Now, this has nothing to do with censorship in my book, but with upholding common sense. You can ask your visitors to play fair and nice all you want, and while usually 99% of them will happily uphold your own standards, it's a fact that there are people who simply do not understand certain rules.

    (See John Gabriel's GIF Theory for a very quick summary.)

    Sometimes it's simply necessary to act, because when someone visits your blog or site, they are, in a way, visitors to your home. The house is still yours. You wouldn't allow your real life visitors to smash your windows and soil your carpets. You'd probably take action to stop them.

    I think having the ability to clean/edit a comment (while retaining the original comment, since it belongs to the commenter) is a crucial feature for a blogger, but I'd like to see it in a way that

    a) makes it clear and transparent that the comment was altered
    b) allows the reader/visitor to still read the original comment

    Just my two cents.
    reply
  • StevenHodson

    1 year ago

    pulling a plug on a comment isn't the same thing as editing it. Blog owners should always have the irhgt to delete any comment that they feel they need to - for whatever reason but letting them edit a comment raises even more "ethical" problems
    reply
  • Carlo Zottmann

    1 year ago

    Well... As it turns out, I've misread efliv's comment a bit. The piece about the "boolean decision" dealt with single comment, not comments as such.

    Again it shows that I shouldn't participate in deep discussions when tired. I am making a fool out of myself.

    So yes, deleting/hiding single comments would be sufficient.
    reply
  • Shey

    1 year ago

    The way I see it -- if you're gonna bring that kind of garbage on my blog, I don't want to hear what you have to say. I'll just delete it.
    reply
  • fredwilson

    1 year ago

    efliv - i agree. it's take or leave it with the comments. no editing by the publisher/blogger
    reply
  • Carlo Zottmann

    1 year ago

    I felt the same until the first time I saw some really unacceptable racial and sexist slurs on a site *I* owned. Just saying.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    We felt the same way initially, but many bloggers have brought this
    issue up to us.

    Publishers may need to make superficial edits, such as fixing URLs or
    egregious typos. I agree that they should control how things are shown
    on their own blog, but the original context of a commenter should be
    preserved and easily accessible.
    reply
  • DavidAdewumi

    1 year ago

    Is it really necessary to make those superficial edits? Publishers editing comments is semi-propaganda. If, as Carlo says, one leaves racist/sexist/inappropriate comments, they should simply be deleted.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    What is necessary isn't for us to decide, honestly. If publishers need
    to do so, I feel the option should be open to them as long as the
    commenter's words are left intact.
    reply
  • StevenHodson

    1 year ago

    I agree with the point about the blog owner not editing a commenter's comment. Not only is it rude and down right wrong it also lends itself to raising question of "trust" and I really don't think we want to go down that road.
    reply
  • Scotty

    1 year ago

    Example...A commenter makes good points that contribute to the discussion. They include an example (for whatever reason) with a valid phone number and email address of a third party that's not part of the conversation.

    The blogger wants to include the comment but not the third party's contact information. If they can't edit it, they must either reject the comment outright or contact the commenter to edit their own post (assuming they can given the commenting platform). A busy blogger might decide to save the time and just reject it. The conversation suffers.
    reply
  • gregory

    1 year ago

    one ... i really love being able to comment on comments, so the threaded capability is simple necessary now

    two ... i cringe when i see dumb things i wrote in the past, right there in print for all the world to see. to be able to delete is good, at least off of the equivalent of the disqus history page (which could use some more context, too)

    three ... ownership ... i know that i am dependent upon grace for the very thoughts that come into my mind, and for the ability to write them down, and for whatever happens to them afterwards. i really am just a channel, for better or worse ... so i don't want to own in the sense of possessions, them, they are not mine. but i do want to reuse them sometimes in other contexts, especially when new ones haven't come along that are better!

    preserving my uniqueness of contribution can have value, no doubt, but the most valuable thing happening now is not "my" ideas in more places, but the flow of the ideas themselves! we are entering into a new dimension in human communication, for all the reasons we all know, and the flow is replacing the person.

    this process is the one that i am most excited to see technology develop around, that the flow of ideas is more important than the individual instigator of the idea. many changes are hidden in this new reality. which is way cool
    reply
  • Jordi Soler

    1 year ago

    In time, the blog in itself will lose relevance.

    Maybe the start of Web 3.0?
    reply
  • MartinEdic

    1 year ago

    It's particularly appropriate that you folks take the lead on this. I love the idea of being able to edit my comments after the fact, if only for typos or mistaken information, etc.
    reply
  • justindz

    1 year ago

    I agree that the CC approach to having a universally recognizable set of identifiers for rights would be a great way to keep this sane and avoid lawyers as much as possible. Even if the definitions are relatively well understood and standardized, a universal icon set is still quite useful a la CC and even the push for the universal feed icon.
    reply
  • Peat Bakke

    1 year ago

    re: questions

    Editing is entirely up to the capabilities of the blogging software, and the discretion of the blogger. Most of the big packages (eg, wordpress) provide this capability.

    If the blog is shut down, comments go away. There are a couple of work arounds -- one is to use a third party service like Disqus which will (hopefully) be around for a long time. Another is to keep a backup of your own comments ... which is a pretty tedious prospect.
    reply
  • Jordi Soler

    1 year ago

    In time, the blog in itself will lose relevance.

    Maybe the start of Web 3.0?
    reply
  • howardlindzon

    1 year ago

    jordi exactly. unless you love to write, build your reputation where the traffic is. win/win
    reply
  • Mark Collier

    1 year ago

    I agree with everything except for b) Access to all of their comments, even if it has been deleted on a blog

    The recipient of one's comments shouldn't be compelled to keep them around, just as they aren't compelled to publish them in the first place. If you consider the comment spam case, it's even more important to give the blog owner control of this piece.

    If the commenter wants a copy of their own thoughts, they can certainly archive it themselves.

    Keep up the great work at Disqus! I'm a big fan of the service.
    reply
  • Carlo Zottmann

    1 year ago

    I felt the same until the first time I saw some really unacceptable racial and sexist slurs on a site *I* owned. Just saying.
    reply
  • StevenHodson

    1 year ago

    that is one thing I have always tried to do when quoting someone from either comments on a blog post or somewhere like FriendFeed. If they have been good enough to help continue the conversation (good or bad) they deserve credit if you are going to re-use their words - but then that should go without saying.
    reply
  • Shey

    1 year ago

    Daniel, I totally agree with your points under rights and control. You give even more power to the commenter than I thought you would.

    How much does Disqus in it's present form recognize these points?
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    All of it in theory.

    We're behind in the software implementation. Right now, commenters can
    edit and have comments attributed to them, so (a) and (d). The other
    two have been implemented and will show up in a future release.

    I don't mean to make this seem like everyone has to use Disqus. We
    hope people do because we enable better discussion on blogs, but these
    ideas are generalized for everyone's input whether or not they use
    Disqus.
    reply
  • sreiser

    1 year ago

    As you can get a feed of your comments haven't you already implemented (c)? It's a trivial matter to grab the RSS of the comment feed and automagiclly create blog posts out of it.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    This is also true, though we had a simpler way in mind.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    Yes, I agree.

    We need to take steps toward this, however. People are familiar with a
    certain structure. An abstract notion of "conversation" and its
    distribution is difficult to make sense of now without getting people
    thinking about these basics.
    reply
  • justindz

    1 year ago

    I agree that the CC approach to having a universally recognizable set of identifiers for rights would be a great way to keep this sane and avoid lawyers as much as possible. Even if the definitions are relatively well understood and standardized, a universal icon set is still quite useful a la CC and even the push for the universal feed icon.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    Excellent point and a good way of articulating it.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    A third party, intermediary platform such as Disqus.

    I know that sounds convenient for us, but hey, I believe in what we do.
    reply
  • StevenHodson

    1 year ago

    I think that the key here is that one is verbal and the other is written. There seems to be an opinion that once pen is put to paper (even figuratively as in the case of blog comments) a whole different set of rules come into play.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    We felt the same way initially, but many bloggers have brought this
    issue up to us.

    Publishers may need to make superficial edits, such as fixing URLs or
    egregious typos. I agree that they should control how things are shown
    on their own blog, but the original context of a commenter should be
    preserved and easily accessible.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    This is also true, though we had a simpler way in mind.
    reply
  • Meryn Stol

    1 year ago

    I only just noticed that Disqus allows editing of posts after someone has posted them. Can a blog owner switch this features off on his blog? As it is now, it's a far deviation from how comments work on a regular Wordpress install.
    reply
  • webwright

    1 year ago

    I like these idea... But are these really RIGHTS?

    If I (as a blogger or product developer) fail to offer someone the ability to edit a comment, am I violating their rights? If, when I shut down my blog sometime in the future, am I a bad person if I don't make the comment content available for the original commenters?

    These seem like *great* features, don't get me wrong-- but they don't sound like RIGHTS. They also sound a lot like features that Disqus already offers... :-)

    IMO, a commenter has creative rights to their, content. Period. They can copy it, make a plaque with it, paste it elsewhere, build a blog post around it, etc. But I'm not willing to agree with the statement that I'm violating someone's rights by not making these features available.
    reply
  • scottyhendo

    1 year ago

    Any recorded comment - whether spoken or written - is open to fair use. Digital media seems to be an amalgamation of both, given the written form and the fluidity of digital.

    However we proceed - universal code or not - I just want to know how each discussion forum (spoken, hard copy, or digital) will treat my contributions. With an upfront, well communicated policy, we can all decided whether or now we want to share our thoughts in that space or not.
    reply
  • StevenHodson

    1 year ago

    I get a real bad itch when I start seeing phrases like "Commenter's Rights" or like the silly one from not long ago "Blogger Code of Conduct". Yes I can see the need for clarification of what belongs to whom but this idea that we have to build a set of rules around something as mundane as comments (Sorry Daniel but really when push comes to shove just like blogs themselves comments aren't of society shattering importance).

    That said I do believe the following

    1. Commenter should have the ability - not a right per se - to edit or delete any comments they have made

    2. Blog owners should never have the right and/or ability to edit a commenters words but they should have the right and ability to delte them from their blog.

    3. A blog owner should never be under any obligation to maintain any comments made on their blog. If they are using a third party comment platform it is then the responsiblity of that platfor only if the commenter has become a member - but that is another whole legal issue IMO. There should never be any guarentee that anon comments will be maintained under any condition.

    I also agree the tools like Disqus should be considered as a platform and is something that I have always referred to it as so as far as any legalities of what the platform provider is obligated to is up to them and their lawyers. However those legalities must be made available via the platform providers site and should have a link available to be displayed within the plugin.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    I don't like set rules either and I use the word "rights" quite
    loosely. Mostly so I can use that image up top.

    Good thoughts though, thanks.
    reply
  • howardlindzon

    1 year ago

    can i invest ? :)
    reply
  • howardlindzon

    1 year ago

    whatever chartreuse says guys...goes!

    I think chartreuse would be the right next hire for disqus as conversation evangelist. not joking.
    reply
  • howardlindzon

    1 year ago

    jordi exactly. unless you love to write, build your reputation where the traffic is. win/win
    reply
  • howardlindzon

    1 year ago

    test
    reply
  • Brent Logan

    1 year ago

    Yes! The right of bloggers to edit comments as long as the original copy is still accessible and the edit is transparent.

    Now all I'm waiting for is the implementation. :-)
    reply
  • howardlindzon

    1 year ago

    test
    reply
  • DavidAdewumi

    1 year ago

    Is it really necessary to make those superficial edits? Publishers editing comments is semi-propaganda. If, as Carlo says, one leaves racist/sexist/inappropriate comments, they should simply be deleted.
    reply
  • electrokinetica

    1 year ago

    One other item I just thought of...
    If you are insinuating our ownership of these comments, would it be possible to institute a kind of public rights licensing?
    For example, if I wish to note that my comments are in the public domain or even licensed under Creative Commons.
    Ether some metadata in the profile or feed, or even just a notice similar to flickr, perhaps.
    reply
  • electrokinetica

    1 year ago

    I quite agree. Somewhat akin to the whole idea of Disqus and separating the comments as their own entity.
    A layperson may not care, but those who are inclined will.
    It's content and part of the persons identity, both off an online. To take comments in and out and to hold it close to us makes it ours.
    I like how you acknowledge that hosting != owning.
    You guys got it right. Its good, but we will have to see what the future holds.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    This is a really interesting idea.
    reply
  • electrokinetica

    1 year ago

    One other item I just thought of...
    If you are insinuating our ownership of these comments, would it be possible to institute a kind of public rights licensing?
    For example, if I wish to note that my comments are in the public domain or even licensed under Creative Commons.
    Ether some metadata in the profile or feed, or even just a notice similar to flickr, perhaps.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    This is a really interesting idea.
    reply
  • Paul

    9 months ago

    This post has really got me thinking. I'm not sure how to feel yet because it's a tough issue.
    reply
  • vimoh

    1 year ago

    I have heard of at least one instance where a blogger got into trouble with authorities because of a comment posted on his blog. This the answer? Very probably.
    reply
  • chartreuse

    1 year ago

    Howard Lindzon. Best. Financial. Adviser. Ever. :)
    reply
  • dlweinreb

    1 year ago

    When I write a comment on a blog, I assume that anybody has the right to pick up that text and do whatever they want with it.

    Letting people retroactively edit their own comments could lead to tremendous confusion, making conversational threads very hard to follow. A Wiki would allow for that, and at least the reader of a Wiki knows that he should not make strong assumptions about who said what, in what order.

    On the other hand, having the ability to delete one's own comments is worth thinking about. (The more I think about it, the harder this problem is! What an interesting issue!)

    It would be really unfortunate if it were too easy to make it look like someone (say, me) said a certain thing, whereas he never did say it. Having some way that I can protect my own name and reputation is important to me. I don't want someone to make a bogus comment that appears to be from me but says something of which I would not approve.

    When people put comments on my blogs, I like to have the ability to make tiny copy edit fixes, such as changing "It's" to "Its" and that kind of thing, to make it easier for everybody else to read. If I had to lose this ability in order to support some greater goal involving integrity and authorship, though, I'd be willing to.

    I definitely need the ability to decide to accept or reject comments that appear on my blog. I reject comments that are spam, utterly irrelevant, or highly offensive; everything else I approve, even if I disagree and even if it's kind of nasty. I often put in my own comments in answer to other comments.

    One thing's for sure: the rules of the game should be well-defined and easy for anyone to look up. Transparency is not a cure-all but it's the first step.

    Kudos for thinking about this. I hope you'll eventually look over this whole discussion and create a paper, or blog posting, or something, that summarizes the interesting ideas herein.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    I do hope to involve anyone to which this applies.
    reply
  • micah

    1 year ago

    Something like this can only be affective if its accepted by all. I applaud you for taking the lead in this.

    I wonder if there is a larger bill of rights that should be discussed as there are more publisher addons than ever before.
    reply
  • micah

    1 year ago

    We should have a summit! But yes Lijit and I would love to expand the discussion.
    reply
  • Peter

    1 year ago

    quitdis.
    reply
  • elpollo

    1 year ago

    There has been a lot of discussion regarding who owns what, Stating with Scobble's post a few days ago, where he got upset that his post was removed.
    My belief is , the blog owner can do what he feels best, if it is deleting the so be it, it is his blog, if you don't like it then do post there, However that will eventually back fire for him, since we all know that the true conversations come from not censoring, so it is his lost.
    The alternative is to use services that track comments and make a copy of them, so even if they are deleted they will still be able to be read somewhere else, such as in cocomment, not sure if disqus does the same.
    Those are my thoughts.
    reply
  • Angyl

    1 year ago

    I think it's worth considering if there is a difference between a "comment" as a standalone entity and a "conversation". Perhaps it might make sense to allow a commenter to edit their comment only so long as it has not been replied to. Once it has been replied to, it's a conversation and "rewriting history" is a more relevant concern. Also if the comment is being republished or syndicated elsewhere, that might be grounds for locking down editing. An editing window seems practical for typos, bad HTML, etc, but locking down editing abilities once a conversation is underway seems intuitive. Blog owners editing the comments of others has a sketchy blink, though, no matter how well-documented. There might be some other method to capture the goals of this idea that's less sketchy, like perhaps allowing the blog owner to screen the comment and suggest a change to the original commenter, who can then edit on their own and be unscreened if they choose?
    reply
  • Mike

    1 year ago

    Good stuff :)
    reply
  • sull

    1 year ago

    i agree with that. version control for comments.
    reply
  • sull

    1 year ago

    "blog this comment" has been on my mind lately.
    i do this from time to time. not to fragment a discussion but to log my output (if i think its worth logging).
    this is mainly for my own benefit but also is good for those who may find their way to my site.
    i link back to the original post and to my comment url when doing this.

    i would like to see disqus add integration to cross-post my comments on disqus powered sites to my own site (ie. tumblr). it's easy to do. i prefer NOT to add another widget or suck in a comment feed into my site because i dont want every comment i make added to my site.

    one problem with comment services such as disqus is the fact that for it to be 100% effective, everyone should be using the same comment service. this isn't the fault of disqus or any other service of course. but it's the reality of the situation.

    i don't know if it can be truly solved unless the "service" is not a single private company... like say if the Mozilla Foundation setup a solution for commenting... maybe even built into the Firefox browser.... that could be more adoptable and universal. Or I could see a Google or Yahoo or Amazon even.... or a federation of all of these types of entities.... agreeing on standards and semantics.... providing something that makes adding a comment and allowing that data to be movable and portable as desired.... as an automated platform that can be initiated on any web page. In other words, a Non-Profit effort. Because at some point, Disqus and other start-up companies need to make money and that only introduces potential annoyances into the commentsphere... a space currently untouched by monetization engines for the most part. The question of "How do you make money from the millions of comments on the open web" is interesting. If at some point ads are injected into comment threads in order to sustain the companies that have decided to provide comment services... it wouldn't necessarily be terrible, especially if revenue is properly shared with all people involved in th thread (yes i said ALL ;) and the "sponsor" posts are clearly marked as such... well... that's the business of it really. I'd prefer it not get inundated with advertisements but am aware that it can be done in an elegant manner.

    So comment services like disqus here are approaching this very large frontier. I'd be willing to bet that Google (or other BIGGIES) are developing similar service and am actually surprised that they have not already released something a year or 2 ago. They have left this space open to tech entrepreneurs. Well let's not forget that they can and will buy the best of breed (you are working for google before you work for google).

    Oh and I do agree that I dont like the idea of my comments being edited by others.
    If so, my original post needs to be accessible. If that original post contains content that is not suitable for public consumption or simply offensive etc... then the comment should be rejected with an easy way for me to edit it and resubmit so it can be reconsidered and published.

    Apologies for the ranty comment.... not sure if this one is blog worthy :)
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    To clarify --

    Self-hosted platforms already give publishers the ability to edit
    comments. Since your comment is on someone else's blog, they are free
    to make whatever changes they see fit.

    What I was personally proposing is an amendment to that ability. If
    publishers *do* edit comments, the original content should always be
    accessible and presentable.
    reply
  • sull

    1 year ago

    i agree with that. version control for comments.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    I agree with the notion that publishers should not lose functionality
    they were once familiar with, as long as a commenter still retains
    their original content.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    I agree with the notion that publishers should not lose functionality
    they were once familiar with, as long as a commenter still retains
    their original content.
    reply
  • Andy C

    1 year ago

    I am a pedant and occasionally used to edit conventional Web 1.0 comments left on my WP blog to fix obvious typos, capitalisation and add asterisks to mask profanity.

    It just struck me that even as a Disqus Administrator, I can no longer edit any comments (apart from my own) although I can remove comments.

    So, let's forget this earnest discussion of 'commenter's rights', what about the rights of Administrator/SuperUser/Root/God and other deities ?

    Shouldn't I be omnipotent and all-powerful in my one man crusade, striving, against all odds, for correct grammar and punctuation as I continue to fight the good fight (unpaid too) against dumbing down and so called 'text speak' ?
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    I agree with the notion that publishers should not lose functionality
    they were once familiar with, as long as a commenter still retains
    their original content.
    reply
  • Daniel Ha

    1 year ago

    I agree with the notion that publishers should not lose functionality
    they were once familiar with, as long as a commenter still retains
    their original content.
    reply
  • marshal sandler

    1 year ago

    Once posted the content is under control of bog owners ! To many restrictions slow down the process
    reply
  • Pete

    1 year ago

    In lieu of a contract where consideration is exchanged, the commenter owns his comments, without license, and can do anything he wants with them, including sending a DMCA notification to the blog or service that they're hosted on to have them removed.
    reply
  • dj paine

    1 year ago

    agreed!
    reply
  • Stardog

    11 months ago

    Very good thoughts.
    Your "Rights and Control" fit perfectly with what I wanted to convey on my site www.restaurantsinpr.com .

    Thanks!
    reply
  • Stardog

    11 months ago

    Very good thoughts.
    Your "Rights and Control" fit perfectly with what I wanted to convey on my site www.restaurantsinpr.com .

    Thanks!
    reply
  • Stardog

    11 months ago

    Very good thoughts.
    Your "Rights and Control" fit perfectly with what I wanted to convey on my site www.restaurantsinpr.com .

    Thanks!
    reply
  • Paul

    9 months ago

    This post has really got me thinking. I'm not sure how to feel yet because it's a tough issue.
    reply
  • victoria

    8 months ago

    i dont think that you should make up your own bill of rights. unless you have fought and know what it is like to get your own freedom. as a doctor in the war i believe that you should keep the freedom that your country has given you. most countries do not even get these they can only dream of these.
    reply
  • victoria

    8 months ago

    i dont think that you should make up your own bill of rights. unless you have fought and know what it is like to get your own freedom. as a doctor in the war i believe that you should keep the freedom that your country has given you. most countries do not even get these they can only dream of these.
    reply
  • nulls102

    8 months ago

    Thanks for sharing this news .

    Best regards
    Nulos

    http://thenewsempire.com/Gaming/
    reply
  • LN

    8 months ago

    Indeed, Disqus is a great commenting tool. It is much different than what I saw so far
    reply
  • LN

    8 months ago

    Indeed, Disqus is a great commenting tool. It is much different than what I saw so far
    reply
  • learn spanish

    7 months ago

    I think any article on the internet should be able to be used by anyone.
    reply
  • learn spanish

    7 months ago

    I think any article on the internet should be able to be used by anyone.
    reply
  • Racing Schools

    7 months ago

    This is new, didn't know commentor have rights. It's so nice to be in the free world.
    reply
  • Motorsport Experience

    7 months ago

    This is new, didn't know commentor have rights. It's so nice to be in the free world.
    reply
  • Racing School

    7 months ago

    This is new, didn't know commentor have rights. It's so nice to be in the free world.
    reply
  • JohnKhoo

    7 months ago

    Every people will have a different view and opinion. They can comment whatever they want. Just that at the end of the day, only the ownership of the blog, the blogger, will has the right to keep or delete the comment.
    reply
  • JohnKhoo

    7 months ago

    Every people will have a different view and opinion. They can comment whatever they want. Just that at the end of the day, only the ownership of the blog, the blogger, will has the right to keep or delete the comment.
    reply
  • seotest

    6 months ago

    thanks for those ideas, i really love the concept
    reply
  • TestSEO

    6 months ago

    all of the commenter will surely read this,
    reply
  • home business Ideas

    6 months ago

    For me, as a commenter,I respect that the blog owner has the right to delete the comments for a reason..
    But, the blog owner should also inform the commenter about the comment that he/she posts..
    reply
  • home business Ideas

    6 months ago

    For me, as a commenter,I respect that the blog owner has the right to delete the comments for a reason..
    But, the blog owner should also inform the commenter about the comment that he/she posts..
    reply
  • Italian Restaurant

    6 months ago

    Yup indeed. I didn't know i have any rights for the comments i made. That sounds cool ! Now i know them . Thanks for the useful information and link.
    reply
  • Italian Restaurant

    5 months ago

    Yup indeed. I didn't know i have any rights for the comments i made. That sounds cool ! Now i know them . Thanks for the useful information and link.
    reply
  • Italian Restaurant

    5 months ago

    Yup indeed. I didn't know i have any rights for the comments i made. That sounds cool ! Now i know them . Thanks for the useful information and link.
    reply
  • Singapore Escorts

    5 months ago

    Ownership is kind of subjective with lots of gray areas to address. Mind boggling, huh.
    reply
  • John Alex

    5 months ago

    great post. Every blogger should know about these rights
    reply
  • John Alex

    5 months ago

    great post. Every blogger should know about these rights
    reply
  • Book Hotels

    5 months ago

    great post. Every blogger should know about these rights
    reply
  • Learn spanish quick

    5 months ago

    Usually this is the case, but you should always remember to link back and give credit to the original author.
    reply
  • Meeting rooms

    5 months ago

    Great point,I like the idea of a blog being common ground between the blogger and the commenter. I agree that commenters should generally have the full capability to edit and delete their comments, but I think it's key that the creator of the blog have final say on how the blog operates. Thanks for highlighting. P
    reply
  • meeting rooms edinburgh

    5 months ago

    Great point,I like the idea of a blog being common ground between the blogger and the commenter. I agree that commenters should generally have the full capability to edit and delete their comments, but I think it's key that the creator of the blog have final say on how the blog operates. Thanks for highlighting. P
    reply
  • autos clasicos

    5 months ago

    the owner is the author,, so he has the right to what he want in his website and what not
    reply
  • autos clasicos

    5 months ago

    the owner is the author,, so he has the right to what he want in his website and what not
    reply
  • nutrition foods

    5 months ago

    Thanks for the info. May God have mercy on us all.
    reply
  • nutrition foods

    5 months ago

    Thanks for the info. May God have mercy on us all.
    reply
  • Singapore Jobs

    4 months ago

    Make sense. Ownership rights have undefined grey areas. Even google , youtube, facbooks and other giants get themselves into uncharted territories sometimes. One must tread carefully and make sure one don't step on the online landmines.
    reply
  • Jo R Hamburg

    4 months ago

    great article!, grats for u site :)
    reply
  • Angela Bradford

    4 months ago

    266228
    reply
  • Angela Bradford

    4 months ago

    266228
    reply
  • Jasmine Lim

    4 months ago

    I never know about comment rights.Will definitely take note of it.
    reply
  • replicaloh

    4 months ago

    I agree that we should have the rights to our own comments.After all, we are the commenters. Words are coming from us.
    reply
  • Duple Ang

    4 months ago

    Great article!I Commenter's right should be addressed properly.
    reply
  • ezditto

    4 months ago

    yes agree!clarifications should be done. Its unfair for commenters.
    reply
  • SEO

    4 months ago

    The above content is very true and i guess every site should follow this in order to get as much comments as they want on their blogs..
    reply
  • SEO

    4 months ago

    The above content is very true and i guess every site should follow this in order to get as much comments as they want on their blogs..
    reply
  • SEO

    4 months ago

    The above content is very true and i guess every site should follow this in order to get as much comments as they want on their blogs..
    reply
  • Annie

    4 months ago

    Without this post, I always thought that the comments that we said doesn't belong to us. This isn't fair for the commenters. Who will want to comment when it is just there to boost the reputation of the particular blogger and nothing for you. I don't think a commenter is just a back end scene helper right?
    reply
  • Ryan Low

    4 months ago

    I have noticed that Disqus doesn't have the delete function and does this means that Disqus also agree that there is no commenter's rights and that our comments belong to the blogger?
    reply
  • jonaw

    4 months ago

    Yes.This is the post that put all our commenter's thoughts together.It's seemingly unbelievable that nobody has any issue over the rights of our comments. Disqus should address to it appropriately.
    reply
  • Property Singapore

    4 months ago

    Without this post, I always thought that the comments that we said doesn't belong to us. This isn't fair for the commenters. Who will want to comment when it is just there to boost the reputation of the particular blogger and nothing for you. I don't think a commenter is just a back end scene helper right?
    reply
  • ryanlow

    4 months ago

    I have noticed that Disqus doesn't have the delete function and does this means that Disqus also agree that there is no commenter's rights and that our comments belong to the blogger?
    reply
  • Property Singapore

    4 months ago

    Without this post, I always thought that the comments that we said doesn't belong to us. This isn't fair for the commenters. Who will want to comment when it is just there to boost the reputation of the particular blogger and nothing for you. I don't think a commenter is just a back end scene helper right?
    reply
  • ryanlow

    4 months ago

    I have noticed that Disqus doesn't have the delete function and does this means that Disqus also agree that there is no commenter's rights and that our comments belong to the blogger?
    reply
  • Hotel Finder

    2 months ago

    Thanks for sharing this commenter's rights, its a good way to express our believe if we comment
    reply
  • wallace530

    1 month ago

    great post sir..
    thanks for sharing. really helped a lot here.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Ugg Boots | Uggs
    reply
  • golfman_story

    1 month ago

    Great post, really help me alot. Thanks.

    http://landscaping-ideas.the-mnm.info/
    reply
  • golfman_story

    1 month ago

    Great post, really help me alot. Thanks.

    http://landscaping-ideas.the-mnm.info/
    reply
  • casewi

    1 month ago

    Great post, thanks for sharing you ideas and knowledge about this, it really help us. Hope you will continue to share and post more informative article soon. Cheers.

    If you want to visit my site www.orchardbank.com.
    reply
  • casewi

    1 month ago

    Great post, thanks for sharing you ideas and knowledge about this, it really help us. Hope you will continue to share and post more informative article soon. Cheers.

    If you want to visit my site www.orchardbank.com.
    reply
  • cheaplouisvuitton

    4 days ago

    reply
  • happyeveryday

    3 days ago

    hello,your blog is interesting.
    welcome to my page!
    reply
  • Peter

    1 year ago

    quitdis.
    reply

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